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Just musing over some things here... I want to preface this with the mention that the game sounds like it is going to be amazing. Regardless of whether or not you take the below suggestions seriously, I'm positive I'll be buying this game. =)
Should D20 even be in the normal die sizes? The other die steps are increments of 2 and then suddenly an 8! Seems to me like rollover dice should be gained upon breaching D12. It may also be better if instead of adding an additional die, is to apply a +1 or +2 to the roll.
I'm sure you don't want to make this into yet another D20 game... but I think you could also go the route of making each roll a D20... Each maneuver supplies a +3 per Proficiency/Skill Rank (so a D2 is a Rank 1 while D12 is a Rank 6, for conversion purposes). Reduces the need for all sorts of dice at bare minimum. =)
How is magic balanced against the combat styles? I assume casting a spell breaks style. Are there talents/feats/class features that negate this penalty? Or, a Grand Style that incorporates spell casting into it? Perhaps allowing the combatant to channel magic through his sword or something.
I was also wondering if a Mimic Style exists? It could weak offensively but be composed of neat little tricks. For instance, each row would have a special Mimic Action that would allow the combatant to utilize one maneuver performed in his current area, ignoring its requirements (except for something that doesn't suit his weapon at all).
I think it would be interesting also if characters had more Health (Body). The variation on damage could then be greater. Opens up some options for designed Combat Style techniques.
Do you plan on including incorporeal creatures? Body would be sort of a weird naming convention for them. :) The naming convention overall is sort of wacky to me... "Aw, man! I only have 1 Body left!" Nothing major obviously.
In the same vein as all of that... Is the Quality Versus system for items going to be satisfying for players? Some ideas to consider...
1) Armor increases Body. Weapons provide additional damage. I don't care much for realism in any event so the idea of doing 0 damage to a guy do his super armor isn't very appealing. Also, each quality value actually contributes... so you don't feel like you've wasted money or effort on an item that might not be able to do anything.
2) Armor increase Defense rolls and Weapons increase Attack rolls. Probably not the best option because it makes certain folks immune to damage anyways. However, you could change the Explosion rules to allow the second roll to be a bonus instead of choosing the best roll. Once again, this option makes every point of Quality mean something.
3) An alternate of #1. Armor provide Damage Reduction and weapons provide damage bonuses. You'd have to include a mechanic that increases damage, such as the difference between attack and defense rolls in order to overcome large DRs.
4) Qualities represent an additional die. 1=D2 2=D4 3=D6, etc... You roll these dice in addition to the normal attack/defense dice and take the better of the two. This idea seems the most in-line with what you already have.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Mac, good questions. I like the Mimic idea. I'll say more later, but one quick point about the d20. There's a sidebar on this in the book. Yeah, d12 to d20 is a jump bigger than d10 to d12. But there are two things I like about it. One, it balances out the diminishing returns that you get from d2 to d12. That is, d2 to d4 is a HUGE relateive jump (doubling the die size), but then each further increase you get is progressively smaller in terms of the percentage increase on your average roll. Getting back to a big jump from d12 to d20 (it's about the same size as d2 to d4) is really just sort of getting things back in line. The second thing I like is that big dice are fun. Life isn't always smooth and graduated. As long as everyone has an equal shot at getting through the d8, d10, d12, then it has been a lot of fun in playtesting to get to the "big one" at the end. And it's all about fun. Also, there are some abilities that are just "Whoa, Wow" abilities that involve the d20. More later.
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These things you say are true. =) I haven't yet playtested the combat system so I'm just sort of speculating at best right now. One the things I noticed is that... even though D20 can produce some awesome results, it only has a 40% chance of producing something notable... That is the only reason why I suggested solid bonuses as opposed to die jumping. Then again, I know you are trying to eliminate as much math as possible for a faster combat flow.
I think you could do (even more) absolutely amazingly interesting things with Combat Styles. I'm sure you don't want to bloat the core rules with a ton of styles but I'm guessing since I have all sorts of neat ideas brewing that so do you... A whole supplement dedicated to new combat styles and variations would be an easy purchase for a fella like me. =D
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Heh, me? True, but what I really want to see is a ton of fan styles! I can't wait to see what people come up with! One of my favorite moments with combat so far was when I used the Five Seasons' Sere Pressure Point on a friend's character, and he got all spluttery, "You... you... that power does WHAT?" Fun. :)
A couple other notes: Oh, abso-lutely on #4 above. There are some weapons like that. Those extra dice are special properties, though, they don't replace the quality mechanic. But yes, oh yes!
Still thinking over what you said on #1. That might be a very interesting property for some armor. I'm thinking some nasty Dynn fixer armor that alchemically bonds with your flesh, suturing plates into your skin. I'm thinking I like that one. I don't want to do that for all armor because I do want to keep the idea of, "Whoa, this stinking earl's favorite son has tremendous armor - I can't hurt him unless I spin or rage or do something to build force or accuracy" because that leads to interesting tactical situations. But hm, yeah, armor increases body. I do like the way that is headed.
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Nifty. :) Five Seasons looks like it will be a really fun combat style.
Do you have any plans to include a Grappling combat style? I know that the Five Seasons style is a good start for martial arts and what-not but I'd like to see a style where the combatant tries to grapple his opponent and break his bones. :D Maybe I'm weird like that?
Also, do things like shoes and gloves have a weapon quality? I know it doesn't seem too realistic but it would negate the need for boring rules regarding unarmed combat.
I think too much so if my questions and comments start getting out of hand, I'll understand if you tell me to shut it. ^_~
Will the game have weapon specialist talents? I was thinking that if you don't, you could structure them like this... Each weapon specialist talent is directly associated with a particular weapon (as you might imagine) AND with a particular maneuver (as in those actions one finds on the combat style sheets).
The next part I can't quite decide on, I have three main ideas...
1) This maneuver becomes an additional Basic action (this would make weapon specialist talents pretty amazing).
2) This maneuver replaces one non-balancing action on a combat style sheet (like a style variation). This replacement can be changed between battles at the GM's discretion.
3) This maneuver is added to the combat style sheet. The catch is, it can't be directly adjacent to a balancing action. This location can be changed between battles at the GM's discretion.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Ignore the question about gloves... I just read over the bestiary section of the primer. @_@ Silly me.
After reading the war drake... I'm interested in hearing about mounted combat. =)
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Hehe, oh yes, there is a Mounted combat style! :) It's actually a grand style. There is also a provision for allowing you to do the Basic maneuvers (lower right) while mounted without training.
Weapon talents are definitely there. Hadn't really thought of bumping them up to the level of a variation, but maybe that would be suitable for the most powerful ones. I will think about it!
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Will the mounted combat style support archery as well?
I decided to take a shot at writing up my own Combat Style... I'm 100% positive it doesn't fit the feel of your game as it resembles a D&D Paladin but I wanted to make it anyways. :D The two biggest offenders are probably Lay On Hands and Protector's Aura.
It is called... [removed, newer version is below]
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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I love Faith Shield! "-1 Mood if defense fails" is perfect. Evocative, meaningful. Super! I also like the placement of "Lay on Hands." It has perfectly logical precedents, and there's nowhere that should lead to it but doesn't. You're right, it's not the best fit for SK's default setting, but it would fit fine in a homebrew. Quite a nice maneuver. Although I would probably add a rebalance (and maybe make it 1 body - not sure what the healing rate in your homebrew would be, but in the default setting, even 1 body healing is huge).
I also like the placement of Holy Strike in the crossroads. It seems like it should be a crux maneuver for this style. Also, Prayer is well done. Good placement, especially relative to other starting maneuvers, to force tactical choices.
Couple questions for ya: Is the Warrior's Sermon a +1 Mood to an ally, himself, or both? Is Protector's Aura for this round, or next, or does it negate damage taken last round? Oh, and did you try making it into a cross? There might be a way. Obviously function has to trump form, but it's kind of nice when it works out to have the shape of the style echo its name (like how Dagger-and-wine is a wine glass, etc.).
I think Judgment Trigger and Purify Unholy might be a little powerful for second-round maneuvers. It also seems to have an interesting mix of offense with a splash of defense and mood control. I guess you'll have to playtest it and see how it goes. Lucky!
Thanks for posting this. Very cool.
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Thanks for the comments! I made a few crazy moves so I decided to balance it by using some of the moves you had already created and simply renamed them...
I didn't actually think about the sheet forming a cross... but that is a cool idea. =D I struggled a bit with the number of maneuvers to use... so I just counted up the others and poked a hole near the average.
I had my doubts about how much Lay On Hands should heal. I originally was going to have it heal 1 Body or all damage taken this Round. Perhaps that works better? The reason I didn't make it Rebalance is because it can only go over to Prayer and Warrior's Sermon. Prayer not only doesn't do much but it is also a Balancing maneuver anyways and Warrior's Sermon is pretty weak in and of itself. Then again, perhaps I have underestimated Mood? As for the Mood bonus... it is suppose to be for the user. =)
Protector's Aura is suppose to be for the current Round only.
I figure that Purify The Unholy has rare uses so it gets the juice... Also, I assume that Demons and greater Undead are pretty powerful folks anyways, lots of Body and high damage dealing capabilities... Then again, I don't have any hard numbers for such creatures so this may be an overestimation! I should also note that Purify The Unholy and Bless Grounds do no damage against non-Undead/Demons. =)
Also, did I miss something? I apologize If I did... but I think I count five maneuvers at minimum to get to Judgment Trigger. At least that is how I planned it. @_@ I saw that Swashbuckler's Swath of Destruction was pretty devastating to people's cases and I sort of just built off of that.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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MacLeod wrote:
Also, did I miss something? I apologize If I did... but I think I count five maneuvers at minimum to get to Judgment Trigger.
As you have it right now it would only take 2. Faith Shield in the first round (since it'sunderlined it can always be taken) and Judgement Trigger the next. Remember, you don't have to only take adjacent maneuvers. You can take any maneuver in the same row or column as long unless there's a gap between them. I was looking at this the other day and got the feeling it was a bit too... compact. A lot of the maneuvers give you a decent amount of ofensive or defensive options which makes the style pretty flexible (maybe too flexible). I think some effort should be made to add some gaps and arrange the maneuvers so that you have to start heading down a particular path to build towards certain types of effect. So you might have one branch that inspires your allies, another that banishes undead/demons, and still another that lets you smite your enemies. Add lay on hands into the mix and I think you could end up with something cross-shaped relatively easily.
Keith hive_mind on RPG.Net
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Right, this is good. I will definitely have to make that more clear in the combat section. Keith has it right: you can slide like a rook to any maneuver, not just adjacent ones, in your row or column. That makes it a little bit harder to predict what maneuver your foe is going to try next, but it gives you more options.
Also, this has an important implication for style design. Namely, it is often a good idea to try to group similar maneuvers in the same row or column. This makes sense from a logical, physical point of view: the similar maneuvers are easier to transition into and out of. But it also makes sense from a game design point of view because if similar maneuvers are grouped together, then the ability of your foe to anticipate your maneuvers increases. And since you know that he knows what you might try next round, you have to respond to that, and so on and so on. I saw an article recently about "Yomi Layers" to describe this sort of gameplay. I didn't buy everything in the article, but it was interesting. I'll have to dig it up somewhere.
I agree with Keith about the "maybe too flexible." I would try different branches with different themes, like I was talking about above. And maybe focus on either body healing or mood healing, but not both. It's got some great ideas though, like Faith Shield. I'd go for more options like Prayer --> Lay on Hands. I really like how the only way to get to Lay On Hands in the second round is with a weak maneuver like Prayer in the first round.
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I see. @_@ I thought when you referenced rook movement that you only meant to say that the maneuver had to be simply adjacent to the current maneuver... not row/column wise.
That changes things quite a bit!!! I can't believe I missed such an important idea... Probably would have caught that if I could get some people to help playtest the game with me. x_x
I'll take a look at the Holy Blade Style again with this new knowledge. Thanks for illuminating me on this whole thing! =D
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Okay, version 2. =) Holy Blade Combat Style 
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Just a quick question... Will there be styles that break the 5 x 5 spread? Or, is this going to be standard due to size limitations?
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Good question about the 5x5 spread. I'd say yes, it can be broken, assuming there is a good reason to do so. What makes a good reason? Well, Savage and Five Seasons break it, and they're both about breaking the rules. Savage because it's fierce and raw and outside polite society; Five Seasons because it has an eastern flavor different from the others. So yeah, 5x5 is just another rule that's made to be broken. The most important thing is that a style is going to make gamers enjoy the play. That's what it's all about.
New style sheet for the Holy Warrior. I like the changes! I like that the only way to get to that central column after one round is by starting with Faith Shield. Still loving the placement of Prayer, too, especially vis-a-vis Lay on Hands. Prayer is a valuable maneuver even though it's only 0/d4! Love it.
Blessed Strength I might rename Blessed Skill or something similar just so it doesn't get confused with the strength characteristic.
Oh, and I really like how Bless Grounds leads to Purify Unholy now. I can see some ways the magic system would play out with this. Shining Soul is an interesting maneuver with interesting transitions.
Guarded Strike - I'm not sure about it's placement. It seems like it's kind of hanging out there. Actually, I think I really like the idea of just deleting it. Then, the holy warrior has to open every combat with some display of faith. That seems very fitting to me and would give thsi style super flavor in play. Also, it would balance out some of the power in the style.
Overall, a nice one. There's some organizational flow in it now that could lead to good tactics. Healing is in a nice branch; undead-bashing is in another. Good stuff.
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Thanks for the comments!
I think perhaps Defensive Sweep should be the balancing maneuver instead of Guided Strike. Lends some offense but with a lean towards defense... I'm not sure if I am comfortable quite with leaving that style without any opening offense.
I think that the Protector's Aura might be too strong. Its like a super great version of Blessed Strength. Perhaps scale it back to reducing all damage dealt to one ally as opposed to 3 different points of damage regardless of whom. That would make it more strategic, you'd have to second guess the opponent's intentions towards your allies... and allow to combo a move together, say... a highly offensive attack with no defense suddenly isn't so bad with some support. =)
I think this wold be the standard style with a protection and a smiting variant. :)
In any event... this is a good start. I know that some styles are balanced against each other but I want to make sure that this one doesn't overpower them all or anything. I know when it comes to fighting demons and the undead (do such things exist in SK?) that this style will rule. =D
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Hm, I would not make Defensive Sweep a balancing maneuver in its current placement. That makes Holy Nova and Judgment Trigger more powerful, and it gives you two different options (with Faith Shield) to start and access all of the central column. Plus, with Faith Shield leading to Defensive Sweep, I like the implication that first you energize with your faith to defend you, and then you can continue, still defensive, but now adding an attack in the next round.
Yeah, you're probably right that it should have at least some offense in a balancing maneuver. But Not too much, though. It already has mood, ability, and body damage as well as mood boosts, undead damage bonuses, healing... there's really a lot here already. I think if nothing else were cut back, I would try to limit its balancing maneuvers in some way, and a d2 attack might be a good way to do that. That would be a good choice from a tactics-design standpoint because it would point the way towards a counter-style (namely one with a lot of rebalancing maneuvers to keep forcing the Holy Warrior to rebalance, where he could defend and cling to his faith, but not really make any headway offensively). Although, overall, probably I would lean in the direction of toning down a couple other maneuvers and starting the balancing maneuver off with a d4 attack. Hm. It's an interesting style, fun to think about!
Plus, the other three are all faith-based balancing maneuvers. I'd love it if the fourth were too. That would practically guarantee flavor coming out in play.
As for undead and demons in the default setting, there are undead! By the hordes! There's even one that could run amok in the adventure at Gen Con, depending on how the game goes. But no demons in the extra-planar sense. That's part of the same philosophy as limiting the species to humans and trolls (with a few variant races of each). I think that focusing on just two intelligent species does a lot of things. It adds intensity to race-relation themes, for starters, if that's your thing. When there are only two intelligent species in the world, everything they do counts more. It also makes the occasional intelligent (via spontaneous magic) dragon, or tree, or chimera that much more fantastical. Now instead of demons, there are plenty of magic-corrupted individuals. Some insane-bonkers, some insane-sneaky, others not insane but just corrupted, others are tragically corrupted in body but not in soul. There's a lot of room to play with themes of possession, temptation, and dangerous pacts with dark powers, but there's no race of demons for the same reasons that there's no races like dwarves, elves, etc. Too many intelligences can dilute the world. Not always, but it can happen.
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I meant to say, swap Guiding Strike with Defensive Sweep and *then* make it a balancing maneuver. :) Of course, I could just flip Guiding Strike's dice around... but the name would have to change because his faith would no longer be guiding his hand all that well.
Sounds good! I couldn't really imagine a fantasy setting without the undead... Demons I don't use very often but undead are always popping up here and there.
So what made you lean towards choosing trolls for the other playable specie? The word tends to conjure up images of the D&D incarnations, ya know? I was also wondering, how many races are within human and troll? I think the inclusion of *actual* races is a brilliant idea in any event.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Right. I'm hoping that the demons in SK (at least in the default setting) are just the sick, nasty insides of some people brought to the fore by magic.
Yeah, I totally know what you mean about "troll" conjuring up images of the D&D hook-nosed, gaunt green giant. But I looked around - in fact I think I made a post on the Forge about it in 2007 - and nothing fits better than troll. For a lot of reasons. Etymologically, it is a fun word - two words actually. Did you know it can mean "to sing"? And of course to troll around, to stroll, to entice. Those all work perfectly for the trolls in the Kingdoms. And the big one: regeneration. That's an important feature for trolls, and something of a metaphor for play in the Kingdoms, or at least it could be. And - it's fun. A character who can rip his son's arm off when he misbehaves, and give it back to him if he's been good for a week - now that's a parenting style you don't see every day. :) It could be fun to explore the social implications of regeneration. Or, it could just be fun to get in combats and be able to regenerate. Both are great!
So that was a lot about trolls. :) Anyway, yeah, the D&D association for trolls is unfortunate. Hopefully we will make people forget all that, at least while they're playing SK!
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