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Can you please describe how you are implementing the class/level system? Does your class restrict you from other abilities (e.g. DnD) or just make abilities outside of your class more difficult to acquire (e.g. Rolemaster)?
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Most abilities in the game are available to any class. Taking combat as an example, a rogue can pick from all the same fighting styles as a warrior. The differences are that a warrior learns more styles and masters them more easily. For example, by 10th level, a warrior will master at least 2 styles and at least 2 grand styles, and he will know several variations on each. A rogue will likely master only 1 style and 1 grand style and know only a single variation or two. [Edit: just to be clear, that's "master" as in know at the master level. Warriors and rogues at 10th level both will probably know more styles at the apprentice level.] Taking social encounters as an example, a warrior can learn all the tricks and talents that a noble or a courtesan can. But a noble or courtesan learns more, and learns them sooner (at lower level).
There are a few exceptions in each class. I think it's important for class distinction and fun. The biggest is probably magic, which is learned by just under half the classes in the game (noble, witch/wizard, fixer, and the chosen). But multiclassing is very much possible - and it works well for every class. In fact, if you decide to play using the scene structure and plot/pacing aids of the game, hybrid characters are arguably the most effective. This is because the scene structure and pacing aids require many different scene types (social, chase, combat, war, investigation, etc.).
It's tough to discuss without the full game being laid out. The bottom line is that class matters significantly for a few important abilities. Your choice of class definitely matters. But multiclassing is easy and unrestricted, and outside of a few signature abilities like spellcasting, pretty much every ability can be learned by every class, albeit at a different pace. Also, currently, in an appendix, there are rules for creating a custom class. We'll see if that appendix makes the cut for the final game.
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Member
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Sounds good.
How do you intend on handling magic? Multiple colleges, effect based, spells from scratch, etc...
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Are chosen, noble, witch/wizard, fixer, rogue, and warrior the only classes?
Do the classes get set abilities at each level (e.g. every warrior gets 1 combat style at 3rd level) or a pool of points that can be used to purchase whatever the player wants?
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Rank: Administration Groups: Administration
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MacLeod - Hey, where in Michigan are you? I grew up in northern lower Michigan (Petoskey) and went to school at U-M.
Magic is in schools or traditions. Things that all schools have in common: magic hates magic, so spell-casting when other spells or casters are around is always risky; spellbound creatures are often affected differently than non-spellbound creatures; spells require resource expenditure. The thing that is different for all schools is the resource. Some schools have "charges" like the magicians in Unknown Armies. Some schools require material components (allowing you to do campaigns that explore the themes of natural resources, scarcity, etc. if you like). Other schools require fatigue/concentration/heart (basically, characteristic damage).
The spells are not from scratch. They're fully formed in the book for each school/tradition. However, one of the things that hasn't had a lot of attention is the Research and Advancement rules. For magic, those rules mean that you can develop better versions of the spells in your school, combine existing spells, reduce the resource cost of those spells, substitute one form for another, etc. as long as you conduct the research properly. Those Research and Advancement rules work mostly through organizations, and they allow weapons, armor, engineering items, poisons, etc. to be developed to more and more effective states as the campaign goes on.
Avinar - nope, those aren't the only classes. There are nine classes. Hm, I don't think I'm going to spell them all out here, but I think I've probably made references to a lot of them somewhere around the net. If you group them roughly, you could say there are two martial, two social, two shadow, one magic, one hybrid/anything/custom, and one gadgeteer class.
They don't get a pool of points at each level or a prescribed ability at every level. Instead, they get a choice from several things: choice of characteristic increase, new style or school apprenticeship, new talent, new history item, etc. The goal was to make sure that at every level for every character, there was a meaningful choice to be made. A lot of the time, there are a several meaningful choices.
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Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Member
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I hail from a tiny little village called Manitou Beach. :) Which is about two hours West of Detroit and an hour south of Lansing. It sucks. @_@
Sounds like you have a pretty ambitious goal for magic, and it all sounds good. :D In my experience, fantasy RPGs don't usually make magic very fun... either by limiting it too much, making it too powerful or by making it feel like just another weapon.
How many schools/traditions do you have planned?
Considering the core classes... are players going to be able to emulate familiar classics like paladin, ranger, druid and bard?
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Would it be possible to see the first three levels of one of the classes? I'm just trying to picture how it all works.
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Hm... yeah I can probably post something like that. I have a playtest "table," so to speak, that just lists the name of the class, abilities, etc. So it won't go into too much detail, but I hope you'll be able to see how things fit together. I'll try to get a class or two from that up later today.
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Mac - Sorry to hear that Manitou Beach isn't the happeningest of all places! At least Lansing isn't too far away...
There are six schools and six grand schools. Two of the grand schools are "graduate" versions of the lower schools; the other four are different.
Regarding the core classes - I think I'm going to have to do a whole new preview section to talk about classes. Classes really aren't the main thing - the abilities chosen are more important. Anyway, I'll have to put that info up in its own preview. Probably just a forum post or a feature on the Game page (not a whole new Primer - I don't have time!).
But you can emulate standard archetypes. Druidic is one of the schools of magic, for example. It fits very nicely with the savage, wild, sacrificial and mystic nature of magic in the Kingdoms. In the default setting, of the classes you list, paladin would be hardest to emulate, but that's because of the way faith is treated in the default setting.
Like I say, soon I'll do a class write up and preview. And I'll try to post a quick 3-level snapshot of one of the tables later today. For now - to class!
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As promised, here's that quick look at three or four levels from the noble and the warrior. When it says "X talent," that means you get to pick from a list of talents that fall under the X category. One thing to keep in mind is that classes do have "cross-class" talents available, just not as frequently as "in-class" talents. That is, for example, you can see here that the warrior gets a social talent at level 4, even though he's not a social class. At some point, every class gets at least one entry that simply says "Talent," so you can pick from any talent tree. The trees are Social, Martial, Shadow, Magic, and Doom.
Noble........Level Title..........................Abilities Gained 1..............Lord, Lady..........................Noble house. Peer. Apprentice of a fighting or magic style. Social talent. 2..............-........................................Reputation. Characteristic increase. Neophyte of a Fighting or Magic style. History. 3..............-........................................Reputation. Social talent. History. 4..............(Based on region)................Doom talent. Apprentice of a Fighting or Magic style. History.
Warrior......Level Title............................Abilities Gained 1...............Fighter................................Apprentice of two fighting styles. Live by the sword. 2...............-........................................Fighting style variation. Martial talent. Characteristic increase. History. 3...............-........................................Apprentice of one fighting style. Body increase. History. 4...............Warrior...............................Mastery of a fighting style. Martial talent. Social talent. History.
One more note: you might think, wow, it's great that there are so many choices (or maybe you like the Hero system and you're saying, WHAT!?!?!!! Where are my @#$>!! character points? :) in which case, hey, I like the Hero system too, but we're going for lighter, quicker here). So the potential problem with so many choices is that ability bloat can make NPCs a pain in the GM's butt, especially at high levels. So I've ruthlessly pared out any ability that made things harder on the GM. The talents and class abilities that are left are all easily reflected in the core stat blocks (and not just as a "Class Ability" listing, but within the other stats/inspirations/history etc. that are there) or on a combat style sheet. In other words, there are a lot of choices in character development, but all those choices lead to abilities that aren't difficult to bookkeep at higher levels.
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Looks interesting. =) The Shadow and Doom talents are interesting sounding... A form of magic, or just a different flavor of talents?
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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YcoreRixle wrote: 4...............Warrior...............................Mastery of a fighting style. Martial talent. Social talent. History. .
Just to make sure I'm clear, you would choose 1 of the above upon reaching 4th level as a Warrior?
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Thanks for the quick response! Very interesting information.
1. How often would you expect characters to gain levels? 2. Is it harder to gain higher levels (e.g. Is going from 7 to 8 more expensive that 1 to 2)?
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Furthermore, what is the expected level cap?
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Sunsword - nope, you get all of them at each level (except the talents, where you pick one of those two talent types, then pick a talent from them). So at 4th level warrior, you get one history item, one talent, and mastery of a style that you already know at the apprentice level.
That's a lot, but as I said, I worked hard to make sure that there's no ability bloat at higher levels. Histories and skills, in particular, I think, work out really well in the system. I think it meets the goal of "Make PC and NPC creation at all levels quick, straightforward, easy to bookkeep, and easy to use in play" while still keeping a lot of detail and meaningful choices at level-up.
On leveling up: there's latitude for the GM and for the group here. The default is about 1.5 sessions/level. It's a pretty rapid pace. But some groups prefer longer and some groups prefer shorter periods between leveling up, so there is room for that. As long as the GM is consistent with the experience system, different paces can be successful.
There's no hard-and-fast level cap. There are diminishing returns as you reach higher levels, though. It's not any harder to go from 29 to 30 than it is to go from 1 to 2. I want the game to be just as fast to play at high level as at low level. There are more choices at high level, though, so that goal is not 100% realized. But it's close. It's only the choices, not the rules, that take a bit more time, so that is a nice feature, I think.
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It all sounds good. =) I'm guessing at some point you are going to implement a '...every xxx experience points, you may choose (insert stuff)'? I think given the way the level up choices work, people could be playing a character for a long while... Leveling characters up to 100 would be crazy but entertaining. At what point does a PC become the Lord General or Emperor? Furthermore... will level determine the character's status as a legendary figure capable of insane stunts like high level D&D? Or will they game keep a steady level of deadliness throughout? For instance... will a level 20 Warrior be capable of taking down 10 or so soldiers all by himself cuz he is such a bad mammy jammy?
I haven't said it yet... so I'll take a moment to do so. I want to say thanks for answering all these questions and being very cooperative. This is the sort of interaction that "big" RPG companies will never have. :D
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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YcoreRixle wrote:Sunsword - nope, you get all of them at each level (except the talents, where you pick one of those two talent types, then pick a talent from them). So at 4th level warrior, you get one history item, one talent, and mastery of a style that you already know at the apprentice level.
There's no hard-and-fast level cap.
Ok, cool. I like that even better. And no cap...sweet. You sure you don't need any playtesters? ;)
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Indeed! I wish I was around for the early parts of the playtesting... It would have been cool to be apart of that.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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Would it be possible to get a sampling of each of the types of Social, Martial, Shadow, Magic, and Doom talents?
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MacLeod wrote: I'm guessing at some point you are going to implement a '...every xxx experience points, you may choose (insert stuff)'?
Ahhhhhh there's a MacLeod in my brain! Heh, seriously, yes, that is exactly how it goes. Right now for most classes that sort of thing starts to kick in at level 10 and then there is the full transition at level 20. It will probably stay that way for the release version. Becoming Lord General/Emperor etc. depends on how your organization is doing. Politics and mass combat are separate from the individual character leveling rules. So although there are level titles, I try to keep them fairly neutral, so you don't end up asking, "If my legions just got routed at Dynn and my capital sacked by Nahalites, why am I still called the Liege Royal?" or something like that. Ah, and as for insane stunts at high levels, well, not so much. I mean, the game is all about stunts like swinging from ship's rigging, tripping your enemy into vats of fixer's acid, or forcing your enemy's dagger to stick into the vendor's gushmelon and throw a blinding fruit spray into his face. But if you mean stunts like 15th- 20th-level D&D characters constantly flying throughout the combat, spending more time invisible than not, and gating in demon princes every other day, no. A high-level SK character can take care of a fair number of low-level combatants, but not ten (especially if they were trained so that the hero didn't get the +1 damage bonus vs. untrained). Avinar, a, talent samplings. Those are going to have to wait a little bit. Maybe later this week, though. I will see what I can do! FYI shadow, social, and martial are most common, then magic, and finally the very rare Doom talents. Shadow, btw, is not mystical. It refers to the black markets, political espionage, stealth and outlawry of all sorts.
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