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Oh, hello.
So, I purchased SBK on its first release, but it is only now with the release of the revised edition that my group is feeling ready to explore this great game. Even though I feel the revision is a marked improvement, I'm still left with many questions - mostly mechanical but some setting orientated - that I'm hoping the forums can help me resolve!
Apologies for the length of the post, I debated splitting it up but I didn't want to push a bunch of earlier threads off the front page!
On with it then.
Inspirations
1. I am unclear on what the process is for discovering the inspirations of others. On the one hand, the rules seem to imply (but I don't believe explicitly state) that if you use inspirations in a given scene, everyone in the scene knows that you've used them and what they are. And yet, a reading of the Hearts spell gloss seems to suggest that there are roles involved for discovering inspirations, because there are spells that involve helping in the effort to keep them from being discovered thusly. How are we meant to handle the discovery of the nature and focus of Inspirations?
2. Does your true love have to be a person? If so, does that person have to also select you as there one true love (in other words, need it be mutual)? Can a heartless mercenary have a true love of gold?
3. Sometimes of Inspirations seem to be very hard to attack in a way that make narrative sense. How do you target someone's love of self, or love of being alive and free or some such completely self-serving "stayin alive" inspiration rated at 3 or 4? If someone's inspiration is "To never let the sun set on the kingdom of Arka", do you basically have to go about nearly destroying the kingdom to degrade that Inspiration in a manner that isnt arbitrary seeming (so, not just "my class ability says I can drop any one of your inspirations by 1 immediately because of xyz")?
Titles, Levels, and Social Position
1. In regards to multiclassing penalties with named levels, is it the intent of the system that not all classes reached their named level at 5th level, or in one particular case not at all (The Chosen One isnt "Chosen" until 10th level, the noble never hits a title of "Noble").
2. Do you have to have levels in the noble class to be a noble in terms of social standing?
3. I find, in general, the level titles of the noble class to be particularly confusing because they are very specific and generally speaking inherited rather then a rank of merit. Is the fact that noble titles are attached to noble class levels intentional and to be taken literally? So for example, there is no such thing as a 4th level Duke or a 15th level Baron? This question might be moot depending on the answer to the question proceeding it!
4. Where do the non spellbound classes tend to fall in terms of social status. Is anyone who isnt a noble, courtesan, or priest essentially a commoner? Does that include wizards? 15th level warriors?
5. Speak of Warriors, is being a "knight" a noble title?
6. Kingsmen are a generically named institution that shows up in some fashion in nearly every kingdom, correct? Do they serve other nobles outside of the king? I noticed an NPC which was known as a veteran Kingsman as well as the Duke's champion, which seems to imply he works for the Duke, not the King!
7. Does a character cap out at 20 levels, or only a particular class?
8. There doesn't seem to be any kind of "npc" class or classes to give levels to humanoids that arnt monsters and arnt classes. For example, are all soldiers "Warriors"? (which would give them all the armor trait, which seems excessive). In otherwords are all NPCs that arnt essentially talking scenery possessing of levels in a class?
9. Finally (for this section anyway!) is there really no way to raise attributes beyond what your class provides? That seems to stick players hard and fast to initial concepts (especially the single-classed) without allowing for room to expand (for example, the warrior who hates magic and sets his magic to 4 but later wants to learn parapet style to learn to fight against it and notices it has a magic requirement of 5, leaving him unable to qualify without getting 2 levels in some other class) it certainly seems to make Heart a stat that never ever raises, as it isn't on any class attribute list.
Equipment
1. There isnt any guidance regarding the rate at which PCs should advance their Wealth. Should the storyteller be providing them enough gold to have a Wealth equivalent to their level?
2. Is the Wealth level of an item an indication of its impact on the game systems and thus what level you should allow pcs to get their hands on certain items, or simply a measure of rarity. For example, an npc in the back is a 6th level noble with his own wealth 17 rated Zeppelin; are items at that wealth level something PCs should feel potentially obtainable?
3. The wealth ratings of many items seems to price some concepts well out of the range of a 1st level character - is that intentional? I don't think anyone could play a blackpowder musketeer at level 1, let alone own more then one gun in order to avoid constant reloads in combat, for example. Is this intentional, or is the idea to let concept essential items fall into PC hands immediately but then link them to someone who expects service in exchange for how well they are equipped?
Styles
1. What is the "legal" status of Parapet Defense in the setting? Since while using it you are considered spellbound, does that mean that Kingsmen will come for you just for knowing it if you arnt a noble? Is it given "special dispensation" because of its history of being used to hold the fort against magi and so on?
2. The requirements for Battlecraft and Elemental Malestrom really meant to be 8 Magic 8 Reason? That seems really high - almost no wizard/warrior would qualify to learn them, for example. The Outlaw Witch NPC in the back has Elemental Maelstrom and a Reason of 6; does she not actually qualify or are the prereqs wrong?
3. When a style says no weapon no shield, does that mean you cant be holding or wielding a weapon or shield while using them? How does this work with a wizard that has a staff implement (since a quarterstaff is also a weapon), or a pc that has a stilleto that storyteller has ruled functions as a wand implement?
Wow ok, thats a lot of question I know. I hope its not too overwhelming, but if I could get the majority of these squared away I could feel comfortable running for and hooking a whole new group of players who haven't heard of the game before!
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Woo hoo questions! Don't worry, not overwhelming. I'm going to break my answer up though because I might fall asleep any second now. I'll pick it up again tomorrow if I do!
First, yeah, doh! I tried so hard to get all the style sheets right. But yes, Battlecraft and Elemental Maelstrom should be Magic 8, Reason 6. Thanks for pointing that out. I've fixed it now in the manuscripts, so when I update the file again (and for the print version) it will be all set. So yeah, it's still very hard for a warrior/wizard to get there, but not impossible.
Ok, now in order:
Inspirations section:
1. The intent is to discover others' Inspirations through roleplay. In other words, an Inspiration can be the object of an investigation the same way any other clue is. The PCs should use any and all means to get at it: bribes, rumors in taverns, stake-outs, beating up the bodyguard until he spills, etc. If a PC sees an NPC going to his mistress's house every evening, or spending all of his time tending his roses in his hothouse, or carousing at the admiral's house, then it should be clear that that activity is one of the NPC's Inspirations. Sometimes there might be a roll - for example, a PC bluffs that he knows the NPC's Inspiration just to see how the NPC responds - and then the NPC can gain a benefit from something like the Hearts' Masquerade spell. Or, a PC might just ask point blank, "Are you in love with my wife?" And then the NPC can try to bluff; on his bluff roll, the NPC could use the Masquerade spell or something like it. So, a) PCs find Inspirations in the same ways they find any other clue or secret, and b) sometimes there's a roll and sometimes not.
2. True Love does not have to be a person. And nope, it does not have to be requited (p. 188 actually mentions an example).
3. Love of self is one of the most fun to attack, in my opinion! Just insult the heck out of the guy. :) "You think you're fit to rule? Are you kidding? You've got the guts and personality of lint. History is picking you out of its navel as we speak. Tomorrow you'll be drifting in the wind, as lightweight and pointless as you always have been." Tell him that everyone laughs at him when he turns around; tell her that you really like her new, larger-size wardrobe.
As for love of being alive, just make their life a hell. In that case, I'd award a point of Inspiration damage for anything painful or irritating: losing a combat, losing substantial property, losing family, losing a lover, etc.
For "never let the sun set on the Kingdom of Akra," I'd say that any insult to Akra would work. Remember, if your Mood is at 0, then a simple social attack (an insult, a sarcastic remark, etc.) can lower an Inspiration. Also, any defeat for any representative of Akra would work. I'd probably give 2 Inspiration points of damage if a PC built up a fake identity as an Akran and then betrayed the person with the "never let the sun set..." Inspiration. But the most straightforward way is social attacks.
What do you think?
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Hi. I've some questions too. In the chapter seven in experience & advancement i find History points. In the book i read :" the history points may be spent on anything the player decides, but if he spends them on something that he did in play, the gm typically awards a abonus history point" I don't find no reference of History points in the book and i don't know nothing about it other this reference. can you explain better?
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Thanks for the quick initial responses, Frank.
So the sense I'm getting from your response above is that its ok to have a few reasonable degrees of separation between the focus and the attack, or even to have an attack that is framed as a straight up challenge to the value of your inspiration. So if I am a clever player who decided to take "Love of Conflict (3)", the storyteller isn't forced to attack you with peace and boredom to lower that Inspiration in a fashion that makes narrative sense; he could have an NPC roundly beat and embarrass him in a duel then mocking inquire "do you love conflict now?" as the villain makes an attempt to cut down that Inspiration.
Thats an important revelation to me because while I realize the rules might say "when Mood is 0, you can try to lower and Inspiration by 1" without much further qualification, I know I personally would have a hard time doing this unless the nature of the attack actually made sense in the context of the Inspiration being targeted.
Also, just to confirm, you dont actually learn the Inspirations of others by witnessing them calling upon them in a scene - it always requires investigation to discover the nature of someone's Inspiration? Does that work in the case of NPCs targeting PCs as well, requiring a GM selected scene in scene order play where a npc or his agent attempts to "investigate" a player's inspiration?
Thanks again for the responses, the inspiration questions where definitely the most pressing! Looking forward to the rest!
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vodacce wrote:Hi. I've some questions too. In the chapter seven in experience & advancement i find History points. In the book i read :" the history points may be spent on anything the player decides, but if he spends them on something that he did in play, the gm typically awards a abonus history point" I don't find no reference of History points in the book and i don't know nothing about it other this reference. can you explain better? Hi Vodacce - I can actually answer that question! History Skills and how they work are further described on page 14 of the revised edition.
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resplendenthawk wrote:
So the sense I'm getting from your response above is that its ok to have a few reasonable degrees of separation between the focus and the attack, or even to have an attack that is framed as a straight up challenge to the value of your inspiration. So if I am a clever player who decided to take "Love of Conflict (3)", the storyteller isn't forced to attack you with peace and boredom to lower that Inspiration in a fashion that makes narrative sense; he could have an NPC roundly beat and embarrass him in a duel then mocking inquire "do you love conflict now?" as the villain makes an attempt to cut down that Inspiration.
Absolutely! I'd say though that I think that does make narrative sense. I mean, seriously, if someone gave you a humiliating beat-down like you describe, I think that would dull the yearning for conflict! The emphasis is on "reasonable" in your first line above. If the attack makes sense to you and your group, then it can lower the Inspiration. It can be an insult, a story, even a line in a play that you have invited your enemy to attend with you. Or it could be throwing his grandfather into a pit of leeches. There is a lot of room for interpretation here. That's as intended. One of the great things about tabletop is that there's a human judge, not a computer. I want to make it easy for him to judge - Dooms to set difficulty defaults, clear rules, etc. - but I also want him to be empowered in making very human calls. I think Inspirations are probably at the top of that category. So, yeah, I think you've got it! Quote:
Also, just to confirm, you dont actually learn the Inspirations of others by witnessing them calling upon them in a scene - it always requires investigation to discover the nature of someone's Inspiration? Does that work in the case of NPCs targeting PCs as well, requiring a GM selected scene in scene order play where a npc or his agent attempts to "investigate" a player's inspiration?
Right. Well, you could, if you heard someone issue a prayer to St. Vartan in combat - then you might surmise that St. Vartan is an Inspiration for the NPC. (GMs should be careful with this - almost everything used that way really should be an Inspiration because players will be looking for it - and even one red herring or never-used piece of foreshadowing is quite possibly going to frustrate the players. As Chekhov said, if there's a gun on the wall in Act One, it darn well better be fired in Act Two.) But mainly, in my games (and your games may differ), Inspirations are an internal thing. Like Five Seasons' Inner Life Flashback, only not quite as vivid. So someone just watching you would only see you gain a burst of energy, a renewed sense of vigor or purpose, without necessarily knowing why. NPCs have to learn PC Inspirations the hard way, too. I often use organizations for that. Not a whole scene. I just get ready to do a quick roll of the NPCs' organization's Shadow roll - spying - or Force roll - beating the info out of the PCs' friends - and then I tell the PC what's happening, say something like "Your friend Christopher comes up to you with a black eye and bleeding mouth. He says that five thugs jumped him, beating him up with maces and a piece of barn siding, demanding to know where you lived." Then I roll the NPC's organization's characteristic roll in the open (I always roll in the open). The player can oppose it however he wants - Charisma to inspire loyalty in his friend, or his own organization's Shadow roll (narrating that his own organization saw his friend being beat up and swept in to save the day). If the PC wins, the NPC doesn't find out anything. If the PC loses, the NPC learns an Inspiration. Takes way shorter time to do in-game than to type all that out! More later!
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Time for some more info.
Titles/Levels/Social Position:
1. Yes, that's intentional. The Noble reaches name level at 5th level too, though - Courtesan is the one listed on the table, and it hits name level at 5, and that's what you're meant to go with.
2. Nope. You can be a noble without levels in the noble class. The class just represents one common path to power for aristocrats in the Claw.
3. Noble titles aren't always inherited. You could start off as a Knight, do something that impresses the Marquis, gain a higher title as a result, and keep on moving up the chain that way. Noble titles can be inherited, but given the access the nobles have to longevity alchemy and magic, there's no guarantee that a duke's son will grow up to be a duke himself (even if he's firstborn). The level titles are meant to reflect the struggle to rise through the nobility's ranks. It is noted that the noble titles vary; feel free to vary them all you wish!
4. The table on p. 57 provides a little bit of guidance here. But yes, a 15th-level warrior is very much a commoner if he doesn't have a noble title or some political connections. Wizard commoners are afforded a slightly higher status than other commoners because they are assumed to be working for nobles.
5. In my campaign, I use Knight and Dame as the 1st level noble title, equivalent to Lord or Lady, depending on the region.
6. Yes and yes. The origin of the word "kingsman" is clear, but the modern kingsman is not bound by etymology. He can for any authority, not just the king.
7. Hm, I play without a character cap, but there is an implied understanding that somewhere there is a cap (or else 120th-level figures with straight 12 stats would dominate the setting). Maybe more info on diminishing returns above level 20 will come out in a supplement.
8. Most NPCs either have no class or are level 1. I usually have thugs be 1st-level Warriors or Rogues. The Warriors have the Armor ability, but it's not too overkill, I think. Most NPC can't afford anything more than WL2 armor.
9. There are other ways to raise your attributes. I use attribute-raisers as treasure sometimes (not too often at all; I don't like over-inflated stats). Fountains in dungeons; blessings; magic items; these can all raise your attributes. There aren't a ton of these in the game right now because of time (my time) limitations, but they are fairly easy to implement. I would implement them sparingly, though. An attribute-raising treasure should be an important piece! Other than this, though, yes, characters are meant to gain only the attribute increases given by their class. I think there's enough wiggle room through multiclassing and magic so that a character can move away from an initial concept organically. The completely retrainable talents and histories also make it easy to move away from an initial concept.
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I love how quickly your putting a lot of these issues to bed for me, thanks!
I was curious about the character cap mostly because I noticed the 20th level title on Noble was Duke, it made me wonder if that meant Kings are typically 20 lvl+ entities. Makes me wonder if the King's will have special rules or "templates" applied to them or if they are just very powerful but otherwise work like normal characters do.
I was also thinking that it might be the case that Kingsmen were the "knights" of the default setting, but it does indeed seem like these are separate; also good to know.
I'm glad to hear that there are other ways attributes can be raised - I know its "my own game" once it hits the table and I figured I could just implement opportunities similar to the one's you listed out in response 9, but I'm one of those who always prefers to know what the default assumptions are before I make a call about if or how I will deviate from them. I personally love multi-classing, but there are folks in my large gaming group who are always strictly single class/archetype players, and I wanted to make sure that minor to moderate organic changes in attributes was something the system intended to be available to those kinds of players. I could definitely see some folks not realizing just how important Heart is -despite my warnings- to start and then getting freaked out that there isn't any method for raising it and rectifying their mistake later.
Anyway, thanks again for the responses thus far.
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I'd like to build characters not of level 1. If i want to build a character of 5 level what is the value of reputation and wealth?
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You bet! Yeah, the class attribute boosts do not need to be the only ones. I limit other boosts, as I said, but not down to absolute zero. I don't think I have or would ever run a long campaign where there weren't at least one or two extra attribute boosts from various campaign-specific items, plot devlopments, etc. (Also, permanent attribute damage is a possibility, from the same sorts of events!)
Vodacce, I don't have a hard-and-fast rule on that. Very rough guide that I go with is one Wealth Level per NPC level for the first three or four levels, then one Wealth Level per three to five NPC levels after that, topping out around Wealth Level 8 to 10. Any NPC that has a Wealth Level above 10 usually has to have a reason for that: they're a successful trader or fixer, they're a noble, they just looted a temple's treasury, etc. Wealth level also plays into social status, so think about where you want the character to be socially. At level 5, a typical commoner might be Wealth Level 3 or 4; a noble might be 8 or so.
Equipment answers!
1. As I was just saying, my rough idea is one WL/character level up to levels 3-4, then the WL starts falling behind the character level by a lot. For PCs, let them decide to some extent. If they start asking to go on adventures specifically for the gold, or they start running a guild and buying buildings for income, then they'll get more gold. If they devote their time to saving damsels in distress, they get other rewards. There's no "Christmas Tree" you have to worry about; a 20th level PC that doesn't have the exact perfect gear isn't going to be hopelessly gimped against a 20th level PC without the latest and greatest gear. At the same time, barring special circumstances, I'd expect a 20th level PC to have at least one item of WL 8 or more, and maybe much higher. One Wealth Level per PC level is not a rule I'm too comfortable with. Myself, I like to keep it lower, so that even at 20th or 25th level, a PC finding a WL 15 item is going to say, "Cool." If I had to put a number on it, I'd say in my campaigns that 5th level PCs are around WL 4, 10th level around WL 6-8, 15th level around 8-10, and 20th level 10 and up. I use WL as a way to "hit the players where it counts," too, so PCs frequently go down in WL. It's far from a steady climb straight up - PC WLs go up, down, up up up, down, etc.
2. If you want a campaign where the PCs are flying around on their own zeppelin, sure, a 6th-level noble with a WL 17 zeppelin is not out of the question. I think it's imprtant to have items that are way above the average WL being handed out now and then. Stuff that makes the players' eyes go wide a bit. But then wealth has to be dynamic, too: you have to have enemy guilds that target the PCs' riches, and enemies who burn down the PCs' buildings. Give out awesome items, but take them away too, and always leave the PCs with at least three things they want to spend money on or get more money for.
3. Hm, I think I made the basic match lock WL 4 in part for this reason, so you could get a black powder weapon at level 1 (warriors get a WL 4 weapon). Of course, a matchlock is far from an ideal black powder weapon, but I think that's how it should be at level 1. And the Black Powder Musketeer does allow you to combine your reload action with something else, so overall I think I'd tell a prospective player that yeah, if he wants to play a black powder musketeer at level 1, go for it but no special wheel locks or anything.
Styles!
1. Parapet Defense is generally "legal," even in Dynn. Different Kingdoms watch it closely, but it's seen more as anti-magic than magic. True, it uses magic and you're spellbound while in it, but usually that's overlooked because you're presumably using the style to fight against magic. Fighting fire with fire, as it were. Your "special dispensation" idea is basically right on.
2. yep, that was an error. Doh! Fixed now in the manuscript. Reason 6, Magic 8 in both cases.
3. Right, that's what that means. A wizard holding a staff could not use Five Seasons, unless the GM ruled it was an exotic or suitable weapon (which I would; staves are pretty monk-ish). Someone fighting in Swashbuckler cannot use a shield or wear armor (the Mood bonuses are suppsed to be an alternative to damage soak, albeit one with very different strengths and weaknesses).
Hope that helps!
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I was thinking about the rigid nature of attributes boosts... and... if you didn't want players to get crazy bunches of additional boosts, you could give them access to a special trainer or item that allows them to expand their attribute boost choices when leveling up. Likely at some kind of cost.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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In the chapter about shadow talents i find "gambler". In the description of this talent it say that you can re-roll any die or re-draw any card but i don't find in the book nothing about gambling. What are the rules of gambling?
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I usually use any of a number of games for gambling. There's knucklebones, where the first player (= the caller) rolls 3d6 and looks at the numbers like a poker hand. If he likes his hand, he stays. If he wants, he gets to roll two more dice. Then the next player rolls. If the caller rolled 5d6, the next player does too; otherwise everyone rolls only 3d6. Whoever wins collects all the money and becomes the new caller.
There's also slots. Roll 3d8. 1-1-1 pays 2 to 1, 2-2-2 pays 3 to 1, 3-3-3 pays 4 to 1, etc.
I published a few dice and card games in Dungeon back in the day. Skullrattle is one I still use. Here's a slightly modded version. It's like slots: you drop your gem through the hole in the top skull in a stack of troglodyte skulls. Then your gem rattles down through all the skulls in the stack, like pachinko, and is spat out into one of 8 containers. You can do it just like slots, above, if you bet 3 gems, or you can do it with just one gem and name the 8 containers: 1 - eat trog guts, 2 - free whiskey shot, 3 - wash dishes for the night, 4 - sing for the bar, 5 - free stew, 6 - buy a round for the house, 7 - free money-change on gem (cash value), 8 - double the gem's value. And you have to do whatever container the gem lands in, or you get the prize, etc. OOC, roll a d8 to determine where the gem falls after clinking through the skull tower. Then the Gambler talent allows you to re-roll your d8 once, three times, or every time you play during the scene.
You can use real-world card games, too. I usually don't but that's because dice are handier and frankly I really love skullrattle. :)
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For gambling I usually use a modified version of Blackjack with some elements from that... one... card game from the SW: Knights of the Old Republic... with DICE! =D It has been a while since I've played it... let me see if I can remember the rules... ... ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DICIN' --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Games are often divided into one, two or three Rounds. Each Round is divided into three Clashes. A Clash lasts a number of turns until one player loses and thus the other player wins. Winning requires that a player's Score does not exceed 20 but is as close to 20 as possible. Players begin each Round with a pool of Mod Dice; D4, D6, D8 and D10. Whenever a Mod Die is used, it is removed from play and may not be used again until a new Round begins. 1st TurnFor the first turn each player must roll 1D20 and the result becomes their opening Score. The player then decides whether to Stay or to Play. Stay/PlayIf the player decides to Stay his Score becomes Locked. The next player then takes his turn. If a player chooses to Lock his Score when it is 21 or higher he loses that Clash. When a player's Score is Locked he can no longer roll dice. Instead his turn is skipped. If the player decides to Play his Score will remain Unlocked and the next player takes his turn. 2nd Turn and Beyond!After a player's first turn his subsequent turns have the following three options; Roll Up, Mod Up or Mod Down. Roll UpRoll 1D20 and add the result to your Score then choose to Stay or Play. Mod UpChoose one Mod Die from your Mod Pool. Roll the die and add the result to your Score then choose to Stay or Play. Mod DownChoose one Mod Die from your Mod Pool. Roll the die and reduce your Score by the result then choose to Stay or Play.
/*~Matthew Miller~*\
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